(no subject)

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

I hope this is allowed here - it’s not fic, but sort of fic-related (since it may help me with the last couple of chapters of my Rosey/Bauer story). Basically, I was hoping for a sort of extended discussion of the Rosey/Bauer pairing and of people’s interpretations of ‘Surrealissimo’.



First off, there’s the issue (for me) of Rosey and Bauer’s personalities. Normally when I write fan fiction, I need to have a good solid handle on the personalities of every character I write, otherwise I don’t feel I can really do them or the source material justice. Rosey and Bauer were minor players in the Surrealist movement and so are minor players in the film, little more than props to support the story. In my mind, this gave the writers great scope to play around with them, hence the bizarre symbiotic relationship shown onscreen.

Now, there’s a video on youtube of all of Noel and Julian’s scenes in Surrealissimo, and their screen time amounts to maybe eight minutes out of this sixty-minute film. This means that we don’t really get to know them as people, which makes me wonder how writers interpret them. I’ve read some excellent Rosey/Bauer stories and sometimes feel that my own aren’t as character-led as I’d like them to be. Where do we get these characters from? Obviously we have to draw on something besides those eight minutes of screen time. Do we borrow from Noel and Julian’s public personas? Or is there something in the film which hints at their personalities?



The scene in the café with the Surrealists’ take on the knock-knock joke could be one - from Noel’s mannerisms and posture as he climbs on the table and points to each man in turn, one could perhaps assume that Bauer is bold, dramatic and self-assured, whereas Rosey makes his contribution seated, with his eyes closed, suggesting that he is more reserved or sedate than Bauer.



I know that the film is a very stylised one, and things happen onscreen which are obviously not meant to be interpreted as ‘real’ but more as impressions of the people and the time.



The most obvious example is that scene on the couch - Rosey and Bauer are seated side by side, holding hands, when Gala walks over, separates their hands and forces herself between them. At first they look very unhappy about it:



And there’s this telling little moment when Bauer glances across at Rosey, who has his eyes closed and his head down:



I’m sure that’s entirely down to Noel and Julian rather than a specific scripted moment, but it does open some interesting possibilities about character.

But this being Gala, the muse for so many of the surrealists, she manages to seduce them (I don’t for a second believe this actually happened during the trial - it’s simply the writers’ way of portraying Gala’s reputation as a seductress/nymphomaniac).



And they obviously enjoy it!

So how can you justify writing Rosey/Bauer while taking into account this seduction?

There’s something I’ve seen quite a lot in Starsky/Hutch slash, where the two only acknowledge their attraction for each other after a menage-a-tois with some random woman, and I could easily see this happening with Rosey and Bauer.

Then again, unless one assumes that Gala (or someone else) has shared their bed before this, Rosey and Bauer are already together, either sexually, romantically or emotionally.

I like the fact that the pairing offers so many possibilities for the ‘first time’ or the ‘getting together’ or whatever you want to call it.



The speaking-in-tandem is very interesting. It’s not just a case of them finishing each other’s sentences; they’re making sentences together, and sometimes it’s tough to tell which one of them is speaking. I’ve read fics which hint at some kind of telepathy, and I think it’s wonderful - there are times when I actually feel jealous of their relationship!



I’m also intrigued by their reaction to Dali - initially they’re impressed with his work and amused by the role he takes in Breton’s meetings/discussion (and Rosey’s little laugh when Dali says of Velasquez, “I would like his autograph” always makes me smile!):



And then there’s the ending. Dali’s shocking remarks about Hitler serve to divide the two of them, at least for a moment - not in what he actually says, but in the way that he manages to say something so wonderfully scandalous, and Rosey and Bauer cannot agree on how to best him.

What do you think happened after Bauer followed Rosey up the stairs? It’s something I should be thinking about, but keep putting off, because it rather scares me.


It’d be great to hear thoughts and ideas from anyone who’s seen the film (I know not everyone has, so I apologise if I’ve confused anyone).

Comments

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

Your html's gone funny! Change this:

<img src="<a href="http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/jenspicspam/?action=view¤t=surrealissimo12.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/jenspicspam/surrealissimo12.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>">

to this:

<img src="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/jenspicspam/surrealissimo12.jpg">

and it should be sorted.

I'm too braindead today to come up with anything helpful to say, but I'm looking forward to reading the discussion when it gets going. :D

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Sorry you've had to wait so long for me to fix it - the post didn't get approved until after I'd left my computer, so I didn't notice the mix-up until I got home from work this evening.

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

I think the other thing you need to consider about this film is that the casting director obviously thought Julian and Noel would be great at playing Rosey and Bauer more than likely because of the chemistry there is between them. This on-screen chemistry, in turn, colours how we view the characters.

True. I wonder which came first: the casting or the relationship. Either way, it says a lot about Noel and Julian. Either someone said, "We've written these two artists into this relationship - who would be best to play them?" or someone said, "We've cast Barratt and Fielding - what can they bring to the roles?"

There is very little screentime for them and one of the reasons I've never written Rosey/Bauer is because trying to capture their characters is like trying to catch smoke; you think you have hold of something tangible only for it to disintergrate in front of you.

Exactly. I prefer to write character-led stories usually, so I do worry that my Rosey and Bauer are somewhat character-less: that they do things that aren't necessarily character-driven. You can't ever really say, 'Bauer does x because of y.

I do think they've had threesomes too.

With Gala? Or other women? Gala certainly had a reputation - apparently she, Paul Eluard and Max Ernst were a threesome for a couple of years.

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Surrealist orgies. Absinthe probably has a lot to answer for!

P.S. join the_mindtank!

Joined!

[easilyled.livejournal.com]

"I wonder which came first: the casting or the relationship. Either way, it says a lot about Noel and Julian. Either someone said, "We've written these two artists into this relationship - who would be best to play them?" or someone said, "We've cast Barratt and Fielding - what can they bring to the roles?":

I've had that thought about other of their roles, too... like in 'Sweet.' But yes, particularly here. "We're doing a sort of comedy show about gay surrealists in a symbiotic relationship." That automatically makes them think of Fielding and Barratt?? In which case the casting directors know something we don't!

Hmm, yes, this would make a good mind_tank post, especially if it got expanded into talking about their other roles and into meta about casting...

HMMMM. (lol)

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

It kind of reminds me of the whole Due South/Canadian 6 degrees phenomenon - the same small group of Canadian actors who appear together in just about every Canadian film/TV series that becomes big in the States and end up being paired together in so much RPS fiction - most often Callum Keith Rennie and Hugh Dillon - and whose characters end up paired together in all manner of crossovers.

Is there a single Barratt-Fielding project which hasn't inspired slashy thoughts of some kind? Besides TMB, there's Surrealissimo, Sweet, Nathan Barley (similar to Surrealissimo in that writers create slash from astonishingly little onscreen interaction), the Mint Royale vid... Has anyone ever slashed the zookeepers from Unnatural Acts?

I think I'm going to go away and plan a mind_tank post on this. After I've had a little sleepy (it's 2:15am and I'm got meetings tomorrow that I haven't planned for yet!).

[easilyled.livejournal.com]

"Has anyone ever slashed the zookeepers from Unnatural Acts?"

*jaw drops* You've just tempted me!

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

That's why they call me the slash enabler. :)

[turgid-prose.livejournal.com]

This entry would work on themindtank community. or the_mind_tank or themind_tank. It's been a while since anyone posted there. Too long.

I think there is an RPS Baby Boosh appeal to Rosey and Bauer. Their look in this is just such FODDER. They are so pretty. It just breeds plot bunnies everywhere.

They did a really good job being surreal. Their chemistry works. Noel's O-face is priceless. Boosh on skates! The stair scene is hilarious. I wonder if that was partially improvised. It sounds like their own banter. Those 8 minutes are QUALITY, my friend!

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

Damn LJ just ate my reply! Let's see if I can remember enough of it...

Noel's O-face is priceless.

Hell yes!

Boosh on skates!

Oh, the skates! I must admit, when I watch that scene I'm largely preoccupied with worrying about poor Stephen Fry, who looks so uncomfortable on skates! I don't know if the Surrealists actually went to the gallery on skates, but they certainly did try to poke holes in 'The Enigma Of William Tell' despite the painting being placed too high up on the gallery wall.

The stair scene is hilarious. I wonder if that was partially improvised. It sounds like their own banter.

There are moments when you hear more of their own accents, which makes me think those are the improvised moments (and they really make me smile).

[jackiethomas73.livejournal.com]

I think that when Bauer follows Rosey up the stairs they revert to their normal relationship. It was the nanosecond separation that caused the panic and anxiety. I just love that.

I've really liked the Rosey/Bauer stories I've read here because they've always been very literate and grown up. They've captured the atmosphere of the film, the mannered way of speaking, the time and place, the passion for art as well as the odd relationship.

There are only a few minutes of Rosey and Bauer in the film but they are vivid and focus on the relationship between them - that's the point of them. Maybe we slashers are attracted to Rosey and Bauer because we like to think of the relationship as an extreme version of Julian and Noel's. They create art together and are the ultimate double act. Mind and body are so perfectly in harmony that it is unclear where one ends and the other begins. It is not too difficult (for us!) to imagine that the next step is a physical relationship and falling in love.

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

It was the nanosecond separation that caused the panic and anxiety.

It would have been terrifying for them. It's the only time in the film when they're not 'together' and since the film spans several years (Dali joined the Surrealists in 1929, and the trial was in 1934) the implication is that they've had this symbiotic relationship for years. It must feel like losing your mind, having the other half of yourself suddenly threatening to storm off and leave you.

they've always been very literate and grown up. They've captured the atmosphere of the film, the mannered way of speaking, the time and place, the passion for art

Yes! That's partly why I was a little intimidated at first about writing Surrealissimo fic. The inclusion of Stephen Fry in the cast gives the film (for me, at least) a hint of Oscar Wilde, particularly in some of the dialogue, and I did borrow a couple of phrases from 'Dorian Gray' in one chapter of my story.

Maybe we slashers are attracted to Rosey and Bauer because we like to think of the relationship as an extreme version of Julian and Noel's.

Perhaps. I know I couldn't bring myself to write Noel/Julian, but even though Bauer/Rosey is technically RPS, it feels 'safer' to me.

[thingogram.livejournal.com]

What really interests me about that scene is that Gala seems to be a conduit between them, in a way. They're initially afraid of the separation, but by holding both of their hands in the same way that they were holding them before, she allows this connection they have to continue to flow between them through her. In the same way, when she's (for dire want of a better expression) jerking them off, because of this conduit role, it's like they're doing it to each other. Metaphorically, the emotional side of the relationship works the same way- by allowing her to seduce them, they are seducing each other.
This, I think, is why they settle into the seduction, and why I would think that they have had threesomes, because the same conduit effect would occur through the third person, whoever that might be. Though whether this is before or after the 'first time', I couldn't say.

As for what happens at the end, again I have no idea. All I can think of is that it would upset them a huge amount, and they'dbe desperate for reconciliation. Though whether their newfound differing opinions would stop them from getting it or whether they'd put this aside is something I'm really not sure of.

[thingogram.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I meant to say as well- I haven't actually managed to read your fic yet because I've been terminally behind on everything I'm doing, but I swear I will.

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

What really interests me about that scene is that Gala seems to be a conduit between them, in a way.

I hadn't thought of it that way. There is a moment during the act itself (and oh god, there is no nice way to describe it!) when Bauer looks across at Rosey, and how I wish Rosey would look back at him (but Julian had his eyes closed again) - I can't help thinking, it would be so much hotter if they looked at each other all they way through. But then we wouldn't be treated to Noel's orgasm-face.


What really interests me about that scene is that Gala seems to be a conduit between them, in a way.

I hadn't thought of it that way. There is a moment during the act itself (and oh god, there is no nice way to describe it!) when Bauer looks across at Rosey, and how I wish Rosey would look back at him (but Julian had his eyes closed again) - I can't help thinking, it would be so much hotter if they looked at each other all they way through. But then we wouldn't be treated to Noel's orgasm-face.

This, I think, is why they settle into the seduction, and why I would think that they have had threesomes, because the same conduit effect would occur through the third person, whoever that might be. Though whether this is before or after the 'first time', I couldn't say.


Sometimes I think that could be their first time (and most likely second and third as well, until they finally decided to cut out the middle-manwoman.

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

I just realised - I am never going to get this comment posted properly. Aw, sod it. I'm sort of making sense, right? Even with the repetitions and messed-up html?

[meobnal.livejournal.com]

There are some my random feelings and observations. Like you said, you have to try and read a lot into very little.

I agree that through out Rosey is much more stoic, while Bauer is more expressive. How much this is scripted, or simply Julian's and Noel's personalities coming through is hard to say. It doesn't really matter, as at the end of the day, this is ultimately how the characters of Rosey and Bauer are represented.

Even though one could interpret Bauer as being more free and open, I feel he does so within the protection of Rosey.

For the majority, when they're together, Rosey is either to the right of Bauer, or in front of Bauer: in the 'protector' position. When they speak together, Rosey starts the sentence more often than Bauer. Not necessarily hinting at a more 'dominant' position, but perhaps, at the very least, the more 'stable' or 'fall-back' position in the relationship.

Rosey also comes across as slightly more conservative. Rosey describes Dali as paranoid (a negative connotation) while Bauer describes him as critical. Bauer is more accepting and praising of Dali. Possibly to needle Rosey (in which he succeeds when Rosey walks away up the stairs). Maybe Rosey is jealous/fearful of Bauer's admiration of Dali?

When Bauer offers The King of England in the knock-knock joke, Rosey says yes 'out of curiosity'. Is it a political statement or is he simply inviting Bauer?

When it's his turn, he offers Valezquez, who is dismissed by Bauer as being too classical. Another expression of Bauer's more radical leanings? Does Bauer test the boundaries of their unity more?

During Gala's seduction at the trail, Bauer seems the more upset at the separation, but also most satisfied at the end of it (even keeping his arm around Gala). Another hint that Bauer is perhaps more fickle.

Although Dali mentions they are inseparable when he first meets them, there is a sense of progression in time. The first time we hear them speak sentences together is when they're going to attack Dali's painting. The first time we see them holding hands is at the trail.

But as their unity grows, so does the possibly of dissent. The first 'argument' they have is when demonstrating their crab-phone at the trail, the second after the end of the trail. Then we see what happens when Bauer pushes too far, taunting Rosey who then leaves him. There's the immediate contrition as Bauer follows him up the stairs.
I think Bauer would make some kind of peace offering, securing their unity again and reassuring Rosey that at the end of the day, Bauer is his no matter what <3

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

For the majority, when they're together, Rosey is either to the right of Bauer, or in front of Bauer: in the 'protector' position. When they speak together, Rosey starts the sentence more often than Bauer. Not necessarily hinting at a more 'dominant' position, but perhaps, at the very least, the more 'stable' or 'fall-back' position in the relationship.

Every time I feel like I've watched it to death, someone points out something that I've missed. I love that I see something new with each viewing.

During Gala's seduction at the trail, Bauer seems the more upset at the separation, but also most satisfied at the end of it (even keeping his arm around Gala). Another hint that Bauer is perhaps more fickle.

I definitely agree that Bauer's the more extroverted and brash of the two - perhaps possessive of Rosey but more free with his own affections.

But as their unity grows, so does the possibly of dissent.

Absolutely. There's more to lose, and that's pretty much what I'm writing about right now, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

The first 'argument' they have is when demonstrating their crab-phone at the trail

The crab-phone itself is intriguing me at the moment, since I've been reading about Dali's lobster phone. It makes me wonder if the Rosey and Bauer in the film had stolen the idea from Dali - we don't see much of their art besides that and the mobile-sculpture-thing in Breton's office.

the second after the end of the trail

The film covers several years (Dali joined the group in 1929 and the trial was 193...4 I think) which does make me wonder about what their relationship was like up to that point - if they ever argued before, what would it have been about and how would they have patched things up?

Bauer is his no matter what

What worries me most about writing this pairing is knowing what happened to Rosey in the end (or not knowing, I guess). I want to believe in the eternal power of Rosey/Bauer, but I can't bring myself to ignore history.

[turgid-prose.livejournal.com]

"we don't see much of their art besides that and the mobile-sculpture-thing in Breton's office"

I see their relationship or lifestyle as a kind of performance art. They have tapped into each others subconscious/unconscious minds. It's more than a parlor trick. They are a continuous, real time work of art. They have a kind of Jungian hive-mind. The dream state and the manifestations of the unconscious mind were common topics of surrealist art. Or was that Dali's influence?

"what happened to Rosey in the end"

Sigh. Indeed. I think it's cool that 70 years after the trial WE, the fangirls, are talking about his work. Barratt and Fielding's portrayal of Rosey and Bauer gave Rosey's work a new audience. I would have never heard of him if it weren't for this fandom. It's amazing when you think about it. We should put up an article on wikipedia on Rosey. I've got to track down some of his poetry. (Can I be forgiven for hearing it in a Northern accent?)

[jenoofer.livejournal.com]

They are a continuous, real time work of art.

True. I think I've referred to it as the surrrealisation of the human body/mind.

The dream state and the manifestations of the unconscious mind were common topics of surrealist art. Or was that Dali's influence?

That came from Breton and his first manifesto of surrealism, with various references to Freud.

I would have never heard of him if it weren't for this fandom.

Me neither. Breton I had heard of before, but not Rosey or Aragon or Eluard, and I'm so glad for the opportunity to read about them and their work (or Aragon's at least - I'm still working on getting hold of Rosey's poetry).

Can I be forgiven for hearing it in a Northern accent?

Of course. When I read Aragon's poems, I heard Mark Gatiss in my head.

[meobnal.livejournal.com]

It would be interesting to speculate whether Dali's arrival in the group caused (or at the very least) hastened their unique unity. It's interesting to see at the start of the movie, Rosey and Bauer may always appear together, but they still function clearly independently. But when we move to 1933/4, they have become (or at least act like) a single unit.

The crab-phone itself is intriguing me at the moment, since I've been reading about Dali's lobster phone. It makes me wonder if the Rosey and Bauer in the film had stolen the idea from Dali - we don't see much of their art besides that and the mobile-sculpture-thing in Breton's office.


I think it's implied in the movie that they copied the idea from Dali. After all, it would be pretty odd if they had such similiar inventions independent of each other. By the fact that it was shown in the movie, I'm also assuming it doesn't really exist (as far I know, the BBC didn't have the rights to show any of the actual art). I'm completely unfamiliar with the historical Rosey and/or Bauer, so I have no idea what kind of art they might have made.
So sticking with movie-verse, it might show a certain jealousy on their side of Dali's success, perhaps. Or a show of solidarity to Breton by imitating the genius of Dali, but refraining from the commercialism that Breton so seems to dislike, thereby putting themselves in Breton's favour.
The fact that their demonstration falls apart shows that (from the point of view of the movie, which is, after all, about Dali and not Rosey and Bauer) they fail to live up to Dali's standards.

What worries me most about writing this pairing is knowing what happened to Rosey in the end (or not knowing, I guess). I want to believe in the eternal power of Rosey/Bauer, but I can't bring myself to ignore history.

I think the movie lets one have a very open interpretation of the characters unlinked to the historical persona they represent. I think any Rosey/Bauer fic is essentially FPS rather than (strictly speaking) RPS.