(no subject)

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

I was going to email a mod directly, but I wanted to see how much backup there is and how many people think I'm just being a nasty cow. ;)


Open letter to the mods.

Anything I say is going to make me sound like an elitist bitch and that's not how I mean it, but... I know I'm not the only one who's been worried and aggravated and honestly a bit upset by the plunge in standards on BSH lately. I'm not saying kick people out who write stories so devoid of characterisation that I don't even know who the characters are supposed to be, because some other members are responding positively ("lol omg ur so gud rite moar plz xxxx") and it's all subjective, but would you ever think about implementing a beta rule just to sort out the shocking spelling and grammar in so many posts? I just don't see the point of moderated submissions if the mods are going to let things like this through. If it's a matter of mods having too little time or just not caring that much about fandom any more, maybe open up mod applications again and let's get this thing sorted. It'd be great for morale, knowing that every single time you click a cut link, the plot might be rubbish but at least all the apostrophes would be in place. ;)


Open letter to everybody else.

An A+ comment on a recent post:

I'm terribly sorry that I don't know the exact ins and outs of every single grammatical detail, but to be perfectly honest, if I did, my life would be very boring.

omg shut up! Grammar isn't boring! OR OPTIONAL. I keep seeing all these arguments in defence of poor writing about how basic skills children are taught in primary school don't count if it's "only online" or "only fanfiction" or "only for fun". Excuuuse me? It counts just as much here as it does in an essay or a letter or a genuine published novel - not because I'm a grammar snob (you say that like it's a bad thing :P) but because this language and the magic it can do is my most precious thing in the world and seeing it disrespected makes me rage, especially as there are so many people offering to spend their own free time making your work the best it can be. Another argument: good ideas count so much more than whether or not you know how to use an apostrophe. This is true! But you can't get away with writing like you never completed primary school just because you have a nifty plot, because it's the two things combined that are going to make your story worth reading. You could have the best ideas in the world but I'm still not going to read your fic if it's riddled with mistakes because it's such a slog to get through. It might shock you to learn that some of us spend a lot of time reading BOOKS. Bound paper things, not words on a screen! The difference is jarring. The writing flows properly in books because it's been edited. Some of the writing on here is like tripping over your own feet.

Here is the new beta list:

http://community.livejournal.com/booshslashhaven/766884.html

There's no shame in asking somebody to check your work over for you - somebody who isn't your friend, by the way, unless you and your friend know each other well enough for you to trust her skills and her not to feel bad about telling you where you've gone wrong. Once it flows well technically people are going to be much more inclined to find out whether the story itself is any good instead of clicking away after two paragraphs in despair - so more positive comments for you! Everybody wins. Please stop saying grammar and spelling don't matter out of school. THEY MATTER. As I said to somebody who posted recently: I get cold sweats if I notice a typo six months after I post something. Take a bit of pride in what you write. Yes, it's for fun, but that's no excuse not to make it the best you possibly can. Posting something you know is substandard to a public forum is insulting to the people you expect to read it, and ultimately probably not very nice for you, because you'll get no comments if you're lucky and a barrage of outraged tired writers on your case if you're not. You might be surprised by how much support you get if you only make half a effort to show you're trying.


This is nothing new, it's just collecting stuff other people have been saying and putting it up here as a last attempt to sort this place out before everybody starts jumping ship.


eta a link to gothimp's post and a plea to get conversations going here if you feel the same. Honestly, I'm not trying to be funny or sarky - if you think this is elitist and intimidating, let's talk it out! This is about making the community a better place, not alienating people whose pushy genius parents didn't have them reading and writing before nursery school THANKS DAD. We'll only get it sorted if people speak up. :) Repeating what I said there, to keep it all in one place: "I just like learning new things and can't see why other people don't feel the same. If I knew I'd been getting something wrong and discovered how to do it properly, I'd be over the moon and all too ready to show off my new skills = everybody wins." This is NOT NOT NOT supposed to be a gang of thuggish intellectuals beating up the thickies. (I'm 24 and my highest qualifications are GCSEs and a couple of AS levels because I dropped out of college and never made it to university - I'm not an intellectual at all, I just get a boner when I see correctly-placed apostrophes.) Honestly, I can't see why people don't want to improve. o.O I mean it, that just flies right over my head. Please explain it, if that's how you feel.

eta a much better suggestion made in the comments: not making beta-reading the rule, necessarily, but enforcing a set of guidelines like the ones used by other successful archives. They're not strict, they're just basic language rules that make reading less of an effing chore. :) I don't think they're too much to ask. Saying that correct spelling and grammar don't matter for writers (!!) is like saying it doesn't matter if you don't know which way up to hold a scalpel when you're a surgeon.

eta a response to some worries in the comments: Pleeeaaase don't feel discouraged or picked on. People only get snarky when they try concrit and just get a snappy "Don't like, don't read, end of!" Also, somebody mentioned in a comment below that a mod said her fic was unsuitable for BSH a few days after it was accepted by another, and there seems to be a lot of general confusion about the whole moderation process. Clearing this up would help things a bit, too. :)

Comments

[litterthisheart.livejournal.com]

I was never all that involved in the fandom but, one thing I did really enjoy was the fact that the fic in this comm was SO WELL WRITTEN. But now? I scroll right on past Boosh fic on my flist unless it's by an author I respect. I'm not wasting my time on all the grammatically incorrect crap that looks like it took 10 minutes to write.

SO, yeah, I agree with this post, which I guess makes me an elitist bitch, too.

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

Yup. I don't think I've read anything in MONTHS that hasn't been specifically recommended. I know I must be missing out on some gems, but I just can't be bothered to wade through all the crap to get there. :/

[trickseybird.livejournal.com]

Gee, maybe we should have a Boosh slash meta? :) Like housefic_meta. What do you guys think? Maybe I'm just being mean :/

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

It's not mean, it's TOUGH LOVE. That place looks top!

OTB and I had a lovely time cheering Fielding's pot-belly/muffin-top/face-craters/stained jeans at the last couple of shows we saw and decided things are going to turn pretty soon when all the thirteen-year-old girls realise he looks like their middle-aged aunt who still thinks she's Chrissie Hynde, and promptly go off him and switch their allegiance back to Gerard Way.

[lydia-petze.livejournal.com]

Ha!

You're right, of course, but you're so gonna get whined at.

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

Bring it on. ;) I'm injured and housebound and ready for a virtual punch-up.

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

Haha, and me! One of the many reasons why I don't have a mobile. ;)

[silver-falcon24.livejournal.com]

Valid points.
I'm glad it's being addressed publically finally, rather than the private bitching going around. Hopefully this can resolve the crap.

[sparklyglampire.livejournal.com]

The fact that someone had to actually point out the difference between loose and lose to this comm says it all, doesn't it?

[infra-dig.livejournal.com]

The worst part is that people are STILL fucking it up, even after that post.

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

I do sympathise, and I don't think you're being a nasty cow! I can certainly see where you're coming from -- I do get particularly irritated by 'Warnings: bad spelling'. Folks, that's not what the 'warnings' thing is for. That's what spellcheck is for.

I hesitated about weighing in at all because I'm not really that involved in fandom (any fandom) at the moment. So feel free to take my words with a pinch of salt. :) I'm slightly in two minds. On the one hand, I've seen communities try to police for standards before, and it hasn't always worked. I don't know, things get sterile sometimes. And while using a beta is always a great idea, I'm happy to admit that sometimes I don't, because I'm lazy and I know I can get away with it. I do like the freedom of not always having to.

On the other hand... things have got pretty silly round here.

I'd suggest something like this. I sometimes post fic to the Doctor Who archive, A Teaspoon and an Open Mind, and they have very specific, clear submission guidelines (http://www.whofic.com/guidelines.php). They explain that if you don't meet these guidelines, your fic may be rejected. As far as I can see, this works really well - provided there's someone willing to do the work of checking submissions. Maybe we could think about using this as a guide?

If there were people willing to volunteer (not me, I've explained about my chronic laziness), I'd be really happy to support something like this.

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

Oh, I rarely use a beta either... so it is a bit elitist, saying EVERYBODY NEEDS A BETA EXCEPT ME AND PEOPLE I CHOOSE. Whoops!

Those submission guidelines look spot on, though. I really don't think it's much to ask, is it?

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

YOU ARE LOVELY. :D

I was just talking about it with people - this time last year (when I finally delurked after a year of creeping around perving at everybody's fic and not saying anything) there was SO MUCH posted and 99% of it went straight in the bookmarks. Obviously interest/participation is going to go up and down, but I never expected a slump like this. :(

[neral-idazmi.livejournal.com]

Agree 100%

[colabottles.livejournal.com]

I get cold sweats if I notice a typo six months after I post something.

I know exactly what you mean! I've done the same myself.

I agree with your point. Although personally I can still read a fic that isn't gramatically perfect when it has a good storyline, it is always nice to know that the author has taken time and effort to make sure that the readers will enjoy it without having to trip over spelling and punctuation errors!

And of course those very well and carefully written fics are always the winners - they're always the ones you still remember 12 months after reading them, for good reasons!

[smaych.livejournal.com]

You're a star. Reading this post and (perhaps even more importantly) the comments has reaffirmed my faith in this community. Like many others I have been scrolling past the majority of BSH posts on my friends list for a while now, and that's a shame for the good work that's being missed. It's also good that this is all out in the open now!

I've wanted to be on the beta list for ages now, but I have always worried about attitudes such as those we've seen recently. If I take time out of my life to read and analyse someone's writing and they repay that by just having a temper tantrum because I said something that wasn't "omgsogud!" I'd be sad. I'd be really interested to hear what you think about this? I feel bad lately because I've been whinging a lot but not doing anything constructive to help :(

[julius12.livejournal.com]

I say put yourself on the list - I haven't beta'd for too many people in this fandom, but my general experience with offering myself up has been good. Sometimes you end up developing a great writer/editor relationship with someone! I think that's worth it.

[gracefulstalker.livejournal.com]

To be perfectly honest, I think the focus on grammar is for a few more reasons than simply the grammar itself.

It's easier to nitpick someone's grammar than to say "omgosh your plot is insanely weak" or "your characterisations are laughable", but since the worst offenders seem to have grammar issues as well, it's easier to say "well, grammar isn't subjective, so let's oust them on that charge", if that makes sense.

Thinking twice (or more) about grammar, rhythm and wording would also possibly filter out some of the fics from people who post several times a day, either because they decide it's too much effort to do at all, or it would at least slow them down enough to only post a few a week which would either a) not effect the standard of the comm half as much because they're few and far between or b) actually be an asset to the comm because they've been worked on and considered rather than just whacked out and posted straight away. HA! Longest sentence ever. *submit anyway*

[gracefulstalker.livejournal.com]

I agree with this post.

[fugaziclash.livejournal.com]

I agree completely with just about everything you've said. I used to really like the BSH, but after a while I found myself reading so many really quite terrible fics that I sloped off to the Libertines fandom and don't generally come back here unless I spot fic by someone I know is good.

Now, it was a while back that I last posted on here, but didn't it used to be the case that you were at least strongly advised to get your stuff beta-read, and then it had to be submitted and approved by the mods before it was posted? I know that this is probably a lot of work (certainly more work than writing 'omg Vince luvz Howard like whoa' and posting it as fic) but with such a large fandom I'm not sure of other options. Open up a BooshCrapHaven for people that can't be arsed ;P Then those who like to write and read crap fiction can be happy in a little corner of their own ;)

Well, I wish you luck anyway *slinks back to Libsdom*

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

BOOSHCRAPHAVEN! That sounds like a offshoot for people who write poo kinks. *shifty eyes*

[julius12.livejournal.com]

As someone who gets off on learning, I also have difficulty understanding those who don't wish to improve. I can manage to empathize with them, but understanding is harder. In any case, since I can empathize at least, I hesitate to agree with a rule of imposed betas. It doesn't really seem fair. Maybe, like someone else suggested, we need another community which is more strictly moderated. Maybe we need to impose guidelines like those on that lovely Doctor Who fic site. I'm honestly not sure.

Oh, and to back you up on it not being "a gang of thuggish intellectuals beating up the thickies", I'm 24 and my highest completed level of education was high school. I'm intending to go back to community college at some point, but yeah, I'm not exactly speaking from up on high.

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

I don't like the idea of splintering fandom off into separate communities like Harry Potter. (Unless it's specifically for lulz, naturally. ;D) I think I like the guidelines idea most, especially because the posts are moderated anyway. What's the point if everything gets clicked through no matter what state it's in?

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

You write English better than 95% of English people who have modems and keyboards, you know. ;)

[thieving-gypsy.livejournal.com]

Mistakes are fine! EVEN GOD MADE ANCHOVIES. ;) But when people churn out endless drivel fifteen times a day with the saaame mistakes over and over and then get snappy when they're called on it... STOP. The community should be unmoderated and left to its own devices, or it should have the posts glanced over by a mod before it's given the okay. I think it's simple, and not too draconian. ;)

[redgirlxx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I could argue that English isn't my first language either, as I was initially schooled in France, plus I moved a lot and missed out of early schooling. This isn't an excuse by the way; I honestly do my best with everything I have, and am humble with the notion that I have a lot to learn. It's going to take time for my writing to become the best it could be. Although, there have been people who simply are not trying their best, and it is irritating for people that have put so much time and effort into their writing.

Perhaps there should be a bit more going on to maintain suitable quality. I don't know, this whole thing is making me far too paranoid. I feel like there are people out to scrutinise. But as someone has said before, perhaps that's a good thing because it would force people to take more time and care.

Can't we all just get along? I hate all this arguing. Certain people set themselves up because they were given advice and didn't follow through with it, but can we all start being a little more positive and supportive, rather than critical?
Much love to all, cause I'm an overly sensitive tit! xD
<3

[redgirlxx.livejournal.com]

And just to add, there are still a lot of amazing stuff around! It hasn't all gone to pot! xD
xxx

[chocolatepeach.livejournal.com]

Your strategic icon choice made me lol :)

I'm not that active in this fandom and haven't been around for that long either (I've only posted a couple of BSH fics) but definitely want to write more for this comm in the future. My writing is far from perfect, particularly when it comes to trying to find the "voice" of characters that are new to me - but whilst I obviously love to receive comments of praise I also like to get con-crit. So I can get better.

On an (even) more selfish note, if I am going to post more fic here, I am a writer who isn't on the friends list of this comm's regulars and so, by the sounds of how many people are skipping over fics by new writers, fewer people would read and comment on my stuff than if the BSH returned to a certain reliable standard. And I want good writers to read my fics for several reasons, one of those reasons being so I can improve my writing. (If that came across as grasping, it wasn't meant to; sorry. I am deliberately personalising the argument.)

I'm glad that you took the time to bring this out in the open and that you conveyed the point eloquently. I'm sorry that I don't really have any constructive suggestions, but I think the idea for basic comm standards like those at Teaspoon is a good one. And yeah, perhaps the comm needs a little more work on the tagging/moderated posting front. (I feel a bit bad saying that, because I maintain a moderate-traffic comm myself and know how hard it can be sometimes.)

There is some superb writing in this fandom. I think that raising these issues is to have a desire, evidently held by many with a unity that being a fan of the same thing brings, to encourage more excellent writing to be posted to this comm via the easiest way there is to do this - to maintain a standard that does encourage. And to encourage is not to be elitist.

I'm willing, nay, keen, to chat/discuss my thoughts and opinions with any member of this comm.

[julius12.livejournal.com]

Maybe it could be considered selfish, but I think by personalizing the argument you make a very good point. It looks like most of the people who've been here for ages are skipping over fics by new writers unless specifically recommended, which is definitely unfair to new writers who frankly don't suck.

[gracefulstalker.livejournal.com]

What's more important to a community? It's contributors, or it's readers? It's a balance between the two, I think. A constant outpouring of badly written fanfiction does nothing to encourage participation, or, to speak plainly, make participating in the community enjoyable.

Very good point.

Also, I think in regards to raising the standard, I would completely not be adverse to that at all, even in the knowledge that my stuff would probably not be posted. As I said, it's not about instant gratification. Surely writing something that you're proud of should be enough of an achievement, even if it's not posted to the comm. And there's nothing to stop you posting it to your journal if you want it in the public.

[monooccularcat.livejournal.com]

OK, this is going to be long for which I make no apology in this instance.

First, I'm going to quite publicly say that I'm not condoning people not taking time over their work. Although we show it in a strange way, I think most of us here have the deepest of respect for what the Boosh do, and I’d like to think that extended into the consideration we put into our fic.

Now for the scary bit.

What has gone on recently has upset me. Had I found the Haven this week, not months ago, I would not have joined for two reasons; because of the proliferation of fic that hasn’t captured me but also to the response it has received. In reply to justwolf; yes, posting should be scary but not to the point that nervous, but talented, writers are scared away. It would sadden me to think that is happening. I’ve been posting here since October. What I write isn’t for everyone, but there have been positive responses by a number of authors I respect. Still, I found that since this started I’ve been unwilling to write/post because, quite frankly, I’m nervous that people who would just have by-passed my work in the past will be less tolerant now.

If you write, you have to accept that you may receive con-crit. This is no bad thing. But it is necessary to recognise that some people are stronger than others. A scathing comment is unlikely to help someone improve especially if it is done publicly. I have myself received a PM in the past regarding the fact that I get quite OOC at times. I was very grateful to the person for doing it privately, as I’m not sure how well I would have responded to it being posted in public.

I don’t always use a beta. I personally wouldn’t support this move, simply because even some of the best authors haven’t used them in the past, and the site survived. The book really stops with the author, in my opinion, anyway. In addition, despite assurances, I also don’t always want to put on people. This is again an issue where I feel there needs to be some tolerance about people’s emotional differences.

I would also hesitate over the idea of an ‘invite-only’ community. I would find this very demoralising, because I know I’m not the best, but I’m also not the worst and I care about what I do.

Commenting on grammar is harder, because I didn’t realise how bad my grasp of it was! The discussion by Wildebrain was informative, and I hope I have understood what we discussed there. I think a community that supports the education of people who have not had the benefit of this at school is something to be really proud of, and I reiterate that in some cases failings are due to a lack of knowledge; not arrogance or laziness.

To wrap up, what I am saying is that this is a two way street. Authors have to be prepared to accept critique and be sensitive to the type (and often volume) of feedback they receive, but also differences in skill levels/styles needs to be handled with empathy. It is very easy to judge others by your own standards, but not everyone is at the same level. Having fun must be at the core, and learning and improving an important part of this.

[gothimp.livejournal.com]

Well put <3

[ganguro-girl.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[electricwitch.livejournal.com]

*thuggishly beats up the thickies*

[electricwitch.livejournal.com]

But I'm not SMART, u guiz. HONESTLY, I'M TOTALLY DUMB SO YOU CAN IDENTIFY WITH ME AND TAKE MY SIDE.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking a stand on this, and getting it out into the open.

Rules aren't necessarily a bad thing. (Just ask Howard!) I think the comm should continue to encourage writers to have their stories betaed, though I think a absolute rule would be hard to enforce. (I'll admit, I don't always have my stories betaed, and I'm not a native English speaker, so shame on me there.) Perhaps a regular "this is how you write and post a good story" post from the mods could be a good idea? In terms of formatting, betaing, how to deal with concrit, etc.

IMO, it's all about awareness. Commenters need to be more honest, writers need to be more receptive to crit. What won't work, certainly, is to just pretend like the badfic isn't there, and hope it will go away. And you've just taken the first step towards getting something done, so well done you!

(Honestly, I think even the existence of this post will help.)

[wildebrian.livejournal.com]

*Sighs* *Smooths down HSM jammie bottoms*

Augh, it's-- it's hard. Lately the decreasing standards here have driven me LOOPY; it's making me lose (not loose!) enthusiasm for projects I've been working on, and I'm getting to the stage where I scroll past everything in the BSH that comes up on my flist. I don't know if it's because fandom's growing, or if all the old writers have lost interest, or if everyone from ff.net has moved over here* or what. I don't think it helps to be honest that we're a fairly small fandom in the scheme of things, and the wank has been relatively little so far so this is being blown way out of the water.

I agree that SOMETHING has to be done, but I don't know what to suggest. I know everyone's getting frustrated but I guess that I hate alienating people and upsetting them (honest!). Like justwolf said, I think there should be a level of intimidation when posting; writing, even fanfiction, is a sort of personal thing, you know? You're offering something you've spent time on and taken care with, it should be nervewracking. No one should feel THIS IS FANTASTIC, I AM FANTASTIC AND NO ONE CAN TELL ME ANY DIFFERENT. People full of this sort of bravado are usually, you know, a bit shit. But I digress. I was nervous when I first posted, and sent work to several people to make sure it was ok to be let loose (not lose) into the public eye. It just feels like people don't really care like that at the minute, is what I think I'm trying to say.

I've always liked this community, everyone I've met and interacted with has been lovely, and I'd hate for that to change. But when so many people are unhappy with it, something has to be done. I wish we could nurture our newbs, but with the atmosphere how it is a the minute I don't think that's going to happen for a while.


*If anyone is offended by this, cool your jets. There are a very small handful of people on there that write well, but it is known as the pit of voles for a reason.

[monooccularcat.livejournal.com]

(As much as I'm NOT a grammar slag, as well you know, I had great joy reading you putting lose/loose into context! I've made the mistake myself and nearly died when someone had to explain such a bloody simple concept to me. Subliminal examples win.)